KEITH TO MICK: 'TALK IS CHEAP'

Stones' Musical Marriage on the Rocks, 1988

It's early fall, 1988. Party invitation arrives at my desk in New York. Come celebrate the release of Keith Richards' debut solo album on Virgin Records, "Talk is Cheap." Whiskey Au Go Go, Sunset Strip, Los Angeles. Food, drink, and a short set by Keith and his band, the X-pensive Winos. I buzz into my editor's office. Can you talk to Keith when you're there?, she asks. I've already penciled in interview time through Keith's manager, Jane Rose. My editor says: "What are you waiting for? Call the Travel department, have a nice trip!"

Tout le monde of L.A. rock was at the party. It was the era of the MTV "hair bands," and, as the Dave Clark 5 sang in "Over and Over," "everybody there was there." I was on the balcony near a bar, and befriended a woman from Marina del Rey, who saw me taking notes and knew who all the high-ranking guests were. Guys from Ratt, L.A. Guns, Faster Pussycat. Only their hairdressers knew for sure. Members of U2, Slash from Guns 'N Roses, Jon Bon Jovi. Tom Waits. Some Bangles. Someone asked me if I was going to the after party. I said no. Too much drooling. I didn't have the jam.

All there in homage to Keith Richards, who for once was the main attraction, not overshadowed by any other Rolling Stone. There was one in particular: You know who I'm talking about, Mick Jagger, who had ticked off Keith so much by keeping the band on hold while he recorded his two solo albums in quick succession in the 1980s: "She's the Boss" (1985), and "Primitive Cool" (1987). In between, in 1986, was the Rolling Stones album "Dirty Work," which Keith expected to be promoted with a new tour. Jagger said no, he was busy with his own work to promote. Which is as good a place as any for us to have begun the conversation in a suite at the Mondrian in West Hollywood early the next afternoon. Wearing a white shirt embroidered with roses, black jeans, and green suede boots, Richards looked tan and fit. He may have skipped the after-party too. He vents about Jagger before I've asked a question.

KEITH: I had to say: What am I going to do? Sit around and wait until somebody [loud fingersnap] snaps their fingers and says 'now I'm ready to put the Stones back together?' And you know who I mean by 'somebody'. So the question is, who am I gonna play with?

WR: YOU'VE BEEN BUSY, PRODUCING ARETHA'S "JUMPING JACK FLASH" IN 1985 AND THE LAST YEARS BEING MUSICAL DIRECTOR FOR THE TAYLOR HACKFORD MOVIE BIO OF CHUCK BERRY, HAIL! HAIL! ROCK 'N' ROLL AND SOUNDTRACK ALBUM. SO WHY THE SOLO ALBUM NOW?

KEITH: [Doing the Chuck Berry film] That's when I realized I had a knack for putting the right kind of guys together, make them feel like a band. I think that has a lot to do with me, that I need to feel like that. It kind of transmits itself.

The members of the band included supreme session guitarist Waddy Wachtel; Ivan Neville, of New Orleans musical first family, on keyboards; Charley Drayton played bass, and drummer Steve Jordan co-wrote the songs with Richards, co-produced it, and has stuck around for the years since Charlie Watts retired as the Rolling Stones primary tour and session stick man. The night before, I asked Wachtel about what was special about playing with Keith, and the high quality of the songs on Talk is Cheap: Still a sturdy album. "If you look at his songs from any aspect— rhythm, harmony, or melody — they all have complete traditional counterpoint to them. The choice of the chord, the movement of chords against the rhythm of the drum. . . the harmonization, it's always correct," Wachtel said.

WR: HOW DID THE BAND BECOME NAMED THE X-PENSIVE WINOS?

Keith: [One of the early sessions was in a studio outside Montreal and] I was looking for the guys and couldn't find them. Three or four of them were sitting behind a screen that was behind the drum kit drinking a bottle of wine. I said, "I've got a load of damn winos!" They hauled up a  bottle of Chateau Lafite-Rothschild and said, uh-uh, expensive winos. So I made it 'X-pensive: no longer thinking.' "

WR: YOU'VE ALWAYS DONE SOME SINGING ON SONGS ON ROLLING STONES ALBUMS, SUCH AS 'HAPPY' AND 'YOU'VE GOT THE SILVER.' WERE YOU CONCERNED ABOUT HAVING TO CARRY AN ENTIRE ALBUM WITH YOUR SINGING?

Keith: It never bothered me.  I've never had any doubts about my singing. I've got a weird voice now, but I used to be a soprano. My career's gone downhill since my voice broke, but I've done Westminster Abbey, the Royal Festival Hall, with a small choir. I was one of a trio of sopranos in that choir. We were the three worst hoods in the school. We sang like angels—that was the only angelic thing about us.

WR: JIMMY PAGE DID A SOLO ALBUM WITH HIRED SINGERS, AND IT WAS NOT VERY GOOD.

Keith: Right. I said, 'I'm not gonna put some phony Robert Plant on it.' Jimmy, bless his heart, I love him, but to me, if you're going to do an album, you've got to do it all. I write songs, and I like to sing. To me it's finding the right key, and the right way of expressing things.

Steve Jordan played drums on some of the Stones' 'Dirty Work' sessions, and told me: "I saw Keith teach Mick how to phrase a tune when he was doing the vocals. I knew Keith wrote the music, but I wasn't sure what kind of input he had. I had no idea how much of the melodies and phrasing were his."

Keith: I wanted to make a very clearly defined distinction between this album and the Stones. I didn't want any murky areas. That's why I didn't use any of the songs—I've always got loads left over from Rolling Stones sessions—I deliberately didn't use any of them. The only thing that does hang over is the title of the album itself, because I started to write a song called "Talk is Cheap" for Dirty Work. One of the first things Steve Jordan said to me was, 'Hey, you're not writing for Mick Jagger.’ Without realizing it, you start to tailor-write for who is going to sing it. I realized I didn't have to write so 'four-square'; I can make different moves.

WR: IT DOES SEEM THAT A FEW OF THE ANGRY SONGS MIGHT BE AIMED AT MICK. "YOU DON'T MOVE ME" HAS LINES LIKE "WHAT MAKES YOU SO GREEDY/WHAT MAKES YOU SO SEEDY" LEND THEMSELVES TO THAT INTERPRETATION.

Keith: I loved the song, but I only had a few lines for it. Steve loved the song too, the structure and the beat. I was saying 'Steve, I just can't think of what to write about. I'm locked up for the moment. I've run out of subject matter.' Steve said: 'When in doubt, write about Mick.' I've got to say it's not entirely about Mick. It's about anybody that's disappointed you, or you can't find a way to get through to them, so you just let it out."

The estrangement between Richards and Jagger had been simmering since the mid-late 1970s, a power struggle between former co-leaders and songwriting partners that Jagger came to dominate because of Richards' admitted heroin usage.

KEITH: Whereas Mick and I used to share the decision making of the Stones, he took the whole weight on his shoulders. I wouldn't be there: I was trying to score. I didn't realize that he liked it, and had gotten used to it. Mick saw it as a power play on my part instead of what I intended, which was to say, thanks for taking all that on while I was out of it. But now I'm back, let's share it again, I'll give you a hand."

WR: A PART OF YOU MUST HAVE FELT GOOD THAT MICK'S SOLO ALBUMS WERE NOT THAT SUCCESSFUL.

Keith: I had a private little smirk because I had foreseen it; I'd told him. What Mick didn't realize was that he needs the Stones more than anybody else in the Stones. Mick had this fear that the Rolling Stones were going to drag him down into this rock 'n' roll nostalgia thing. When in actuality what he did was far more old-fashioned. I said, Hey, there's plenty of room [in the Rolling Stones] to be Mick Jagger. You should be proud of what you've done and grow up. I think the Stones are in this position to see this music grow up. He said, 'the Rolling Stones are a millstone around my neck.' Those were his words. I said, "I think you are very wrong. I think you can't live without them." The proof is in the pudding. He's now touring Australia doing four of his own songs and 20 Rolling Stones songs, and it's not the Rolling Stones."

(I called Jagger's spokeswoman, who said he was indeed touring in Australia, and he would have no comment.) Steve Jordan added in our separate interview: "They've known each other for 33 years, so it's never going to be finished. They are just going to have to deal with it."

DO YOU THINK YOU AND MICK WILL BE ABLE TO WORK TOGETHER AGAIN WITH ALL THIS TENSION?

Keith: We talked again recently, and I yell at him still. He says, 'there's no need to get violent.' And I say, who else is going to get violent with you? That's what a friend's for, to shout at you when you think they are screwing up. I'll bet you have plenty of people going 'Yes Mick, yes Mick, yes Mick.' I've got to be the one who'll say, 'no Mick, you're wrong, because nobody will do that for you. He's chastened, maybe a little.

WR: (SAYING NOTHING AS DE FACTO THERAPIST FOR THIS TROUBLED MARRIAGE, BUT GIVING KEITH A SKEPTICAL EYE.)

Keith: He's not exactly the kind of guy who'll sit in front of you and say, 'I'm chastened.' But the fact that I got a call from London saying, 'band meeting to discuss get together next year'—well, to me, that's chastened."

That was 35 years ago. The marriage has survived. The Rolling Stones: Mick Jagger, Keith Richards, Ron Wood, as well as other musicians, toured in 2023, released a new album, Hackney Diamonds, this fall. Mick, now 80, and Keith, who turned 80 on Dec. 18, 2023, have more tour dates scheduled for 2024. You can hear a pretty good Jagger solo track as the opening and closing theme of the sensational streaming British spy thriller Slow Horses starring Gary Oldman, on Apple TV Plus.